Fiero Wont Start...HELP!!!

[Countach]

I am building a countach replica out of an 86 Fiero GT 2.8l V6. I am running
a fuel cell with a new MSD #2225 High pressure fuel pump. I have droped the
engine back into the car and everything has been running fine as of last week.
I added antifreeze for the first time to the engine today and then started
the motor and let it run for about 20 minutes and then shut it off. I
immediately decided to crank the engine over again and it would crank fast...
but not start. Checked for proper timing and spark. Checked for fuel
pressure to the rail and plenty of it. I checked the middle trunk side spark
plug and no gas on it. Let the fuel pump run some more by manualy activating
it and still no fuel on the plug. I then turned the key and started the
engine and it immediately started and ran fine without hesitation and idled
beutifully. I turned the engine off and tried to restart it....not a cough
or sputter. Manualy ran the fuel pump for about 8 seconds and the car fires
right up and continues to run for as long as I do not turn off the key. This
same senario happens over and over again. Why will the car not start until
the fuel pump runs for 8 seconds prior to starting? I have not found
anywhere air can get into the line.

I have over 40 psi of fuel to the rail
I have a brand new fuel filter

Please help...I am going in for paint in 2 weeks...and dont want to push,
pull and drag this thing into the booth LOL.

Thanks,
Chris, OHIO

[John Craker]

Have a helper flip the key on - listen for the pump.
Nothing? Probably the FP relay (was located in front of the air filter
housing).

The oil pressure switch is supposed to be a backup to the relay - possibly
it's going bad and won't flick over until the pressure is really high.

These things are semi tough to find without being there ya know. :)

If all the above fails.... believe it or not.... replace the ignition
module!
If it's half bad (yes, it can be!) and not feeding back pulses to the ECM,
the ECM won't turn the injectors on (since it can't tell that the engine is
now running).

Post by Countach
I am building a countach replica out of an 86 Fiero GT 2.8l V6. I am running
a fuel cell with a new MSD #2225 High pressure fuel pump. I have droped the
engine back into the car and everything has been running fine as of last week.
I added antifreeze for the first time to the engine today and then started
the motor and let it run for about 20 minutes and then shut it off. I
immediately decided to crank the engine over again and it would crank fast...
but not start. Checked for proper timing and spark. Checked for fuel
pressure to the rail and plenty of it. I checked the middle trunk side spark
plug and no gas on it. Let the fuel pump run some more by manualy activating
it and still no fuel on the plug. I then turned the key and started the
engine and it immediately started and ran fine without hesitation and idled
beutifully. I turned the engine off and tried to restart it....not a cough
or sputter. Manualy ran the fuel pump for about 8 seconds and the car fires
right up and continues to run for as long as I do not turn off the key.
This
same senario happens over and over again. Why will the car not start until
the fuel pump runs for 8 seconds prior to starting? I have not found
anywhere air can get into the line.
I have over 40 psi of fuel to the rail
I have a brand new fuel filter
Please help...I am going in for paint in 2 weeks...and dont want to push,
pull and drag this thing into the booth LOL.
Thanks,
Chris, OHIO

[Countach]

The FP relay kicks in for 2 seconds with the ignition in run position.

As of right now I cant tell wheather the FP is running in the start / crank
position(Cant hear the fuel cell that far away LOL).

If I have 40 psi plus to the fuel rail shouldnt the engine start for a few
seconds no matter if the fuel pump is continuing to run in the run position.


I also just found out my alternator is not working??? Dont know if it has
been working last week or not or ever....but definitely dead now. I would
not think the alternator would have anything to do with the car not firing.

The engine does run for as long as I want it to until I turn the key off.
Then I must go through the manual 8 second fuel pump power up to get it to
start again. I assume from this that the fuel pump is continuing to run in
the run position by the ECM when motor is firing.

I cant get my oil pressure gage to work...dont know if it is the sender or
the cluster. Only gage that does not work right now. Oil gage always reads
"PEGGED" pressure no matter if engine is running or not.

Have not check the Ignition module, yet...but when I was rotating the
distributer when the ignition was in the run position the fuel pump kicked on
all by itself for 2 seconds out of the blue...Could something be loose to the
module or surrounding wires? However the FP always kicks on for 2 second
after the switch has been moved into run.

Out of curiosity could it be a cold start valve? Cold start injector?

I dont get it...Everything was working fine until I let the engine idle for
20 minutes...Of course it has been 6 years since the engine or electronics
have been used. Always garaged though.

I have 5 fieros...3 of which are kit cars and 2 of which are running parts
cars...So its not a big deal to throw parts at this project to get things
right.

Sorry for writing a book...Any additional comments would be appreciated!!!!
Thanks John for your comments.

If anyone has the time to talk fiero issues you could email me your phone
number with best time to call: email address is ***@hotmail.com. I
would greatly appreciate it!!!

Post by John Craker
Have a helper flip the key on - listen for the pump.
Nothing? Probably the FP relay (was located in front of the air filter
housing).
The oil pressure switch is supposed to be a backup to the relay - possibly
it's going bad and won't flick over until the pressure is really high.
These things are semi tough to find without being there ya know. :)
If all the above fails.... believe it or not.... replace the ignition
module!
If it's half bad (yes, it can be!) and not feeding back pulses to the ECM,
the ECM won't turn the injectors on (since it can't tell that the engine is
now running).

Post by Countach
I am building a countach replica out of an 86 Fiero GT 2.8l V6. I am running

[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]

Post by Countach
Thanks,
Chris, OHIO

[Countach]

I just sprayed some starter fluid into the air intake and it starts right up
and stays running fine until I turn the key off. When I try to restart the
same problem describe before happens. Does this mean the control module is
most likely the culprit...or is there something else I might be missing.

Post by Countach
The FP relay kicks in for 2 seconds with the ignition in run position.
As of right now I cant tell wheather the FP is running in the start / crank
position(Cant hear the fuel cell that far away LOL).
If I have 40 psi plus to the fuel rail shouldnt the engine start for a few
seconds no matter if the fuel pump is continuing to run in the run position.
I also just found out my alternator is not working??? Dont know if it has
been working last week or not or ever....but definitely dead now. I would
not think the alternator would have anything to do with the car not firing.
The engine does run for as long as I want it to until I turn the key off.
Then I must go through the manual 8 second fuel pump power up to get it to
start again. I assume from this that the fuel pump is continuing to run in
the run position by the ECM when motor is firing.
I cant get my oil pressure gage to work...dont know if it is the sender or
the cluster. Only gage that does not work right now. Oil gage always reads
"PEGGED" pressure no matter if engine is running or not.
Have not check the Ignition module, yet...but when I was rotating the
distributer when the ignition was in the run position the fuel pump kicked on
all by itself for 2 seconds out of the blue...Could something be loose to the
module or surrounding wires? However the FP always kicks on for 2 second
after the switch has been moved into run.
Out of curiosity could it be a cold start valve? Cold start injector?
I dont get it...Everything was working fine until I let the engine idle for
20 minutes...Of course it has been 6 years since the engine or electronics
have been used. Always garaged though.
I have 5 fieros...3 of which are kit cars and 2 of which are running parts
cars...So its not a big deal to throw parts at this project to get things
right.
Sorry for writing a book...Any additional comments would be appreciated!!!!
Thanks John for your comments.
If anyone has the time to talk fiero issues you could email me your phone
would greatly appreciate it!!!

Post by John Craker
Have a helper flip the key on - listen for the pump.
Nothing? Probably the FP relay (was located in front of the air filter

[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]

Post by John Craker

Post by Countach
Thanks,
Chris, OHIO

[Countach via CarKB.com]

OK...this morning the car starts everytime from a cold start. After the
engine heats up I run into the same problem again.

Post by Countach
I just sprayed some starter fluid into the air intake and it starts right up
and stays running fine until I turn the key off. When I try to restart the
same problem describe before happens. Does this mean the control module is
most likely the culprit...or is there something else I might be missing.

Post by Countach
The FP relay kicks in for 2 seconds with the ignition in run position.

[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]

Post by Countach

Post by Countach
Thanks,
Chris, OHIO

[R W Hughes]

Post by Countach via CarKB.com
OK...this morning the car starts everytime from a cold start. After the
engine heats up I run into the same problem again.

Post by Countach
I just sprayed some starter fluid into the air intake and it starts right up
and stays running fine until I turn the key off. When I try to restart the
same problem describe before happens. Does this mean the control module is
most likely the culprit...or is there something else I might be missing.

Post by Countach
The FP relay kicks in for 2 seconds with the ignition in run position.

[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]

Post by Countach

Post by Countach
Thanks,
Chris, OHIO

This all sounds like ignition module. The first symptom of failure is no
spark when sitting a few moments while hot. If the the module does not
generate the signal to the ecm it will not inject any fuel. One quick
clue is the tachometer, it should read the cranking speed while
cranking, 300-400rpm. If it reads zero you definitely have ignition
module problems.

I burned out a starter and had to pay for a tow home after repeated
instances of this same problem. Of course after replacing the starter
the thing started right up since it was cold.

[Countach via CarKB.com]

RW

I am getting spark when engine is hot

The RPM gauge reads approx 400 RPM when cranking

Doe this still sound like the control module?

Post by Countach via CarKB.com
OK...this morning the car starts everytime from a cold start. After the
engine heats up I run into the same problem again.

[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]

Post by Countach via CarKB.com

Post by Countach
Thanks,
Chris, OHIO

This all sounds like ignition module. The first symptom of failure is no
spark when sitting a few moments while hot. If the the module does not
generate the signal to the ecm it will not inject any fuel. One quick
clue is the tachometer, it should read the cranking speed while
cranking, 300-400rpm. If it reads zero you definitely have ignition
module problems.
I burned out a starter and had to pay for a tow home after repeated
instances of this same problem. Of course after replacing the starter
the thing started right up since it was cold.

[Countach via CarKB.com]

My local parts store said they can test the module. Are these test full
proof or hit and miss with my situation?

Post by Countach via CarKB.com
RW
I am getting spark when engine is hot
The RPM gauge reads approx 400 RPM when cranking
Doe this still sound like the control module?

Post by R W Hughes

Post by Countach via CarKB.com
OK...this morning the car starts everytime from a cold start. After the
engine heats up I run into the same problem again.

[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]

Post by R W Hughes
instances of this same problem. Of course after replacing the starter
the thing started right up since it was cold.

[R W Hughes]

Post by Countach via CarKB.com
My local parts store said they can test the module. Are these test full
proof or hit and miss with my situation?

Post by Countach via CarKB.com
RW
I am getting spark when engine is hot
The RPM gauge reads approx 400 RPM when cranking
Doe this still sound like the control module?

Post by R W Hughes

Post by Countach via CarKB.com
OK...this morning the car starts everytime from a cold start. After the
engine heats up I run into the same problem again.

[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]

Post by R W Hughes
instances of this same problem. Of course after replacing the starter
the thing started right up since it was cold.

The only reliable test is replacement. They aren't that expensive or
hard to change out.

[Countach via CarKB.com]

Just got back from the parts store and the module tested fine. Also to note
that this module was brand new and came with a new distributor and rotor and
cap 6 years ago...all this was just fired for the first time a few weeks ago.
Is their any chance that the ecm might be bad or other issues

Post by Countach via CarKB.com

Post by Countach via CarKB.com
My local parts store said they can test the module. Are these test full
proof or hit and miss with my situation?

[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]

Post by Countach via CarKB.com

Post by R W Hughes
instances of this same problem. Of course after replacing the starter
the thing started right up since it was cold.

The only reliable test is replacement. They aren't that expensive or
hard to change out.

[JStricker]

Think this through

Car won't start hot. Shoot some starting fluid in it. Car starts and runs.
Car won't start hot. Manually run the fuel pump. Car starts and runs.

You have a fuel delivery problem.

It may be draining back and is taking longer than expected to fill the rails
again when hot, or something else is going on, but you have a fuel delivery
problem.

John Stricker

Post by Countach via CarKB.com
Just got back from the parts store and the module tested fine. Also to note
that this module was brand new and came with a new distributor and rotor and
cap 6 years ago...all this was just fired for the first time a few weeks ago.
Is their any chance that the ecm might be bad or other issues

[John Craker]

The module tested fine... because it was cold!

Bring a heat gun with you next time, and bake the crap out of it while the
guys testing it (this is sure to win brownie points and make him happy!
Not... hehehe). It'll probably fail.

Anyhow, if it'll light off with starting fluid, and most of these symptoms
are when it's hot....
......... Replace ignition module! .............

After working on 100% Fiero's for 5 years solid - I've probably replaced 50
or more of them.
Make sure the distributor base is FLAT and CLEAN.
Use the best heat sink paste you can find (arctic silver 5 for computers is
about the best stuff) between the module and dist. Only use a thin film of
it - more is not better!.

Post by Countach via CarKB.com
Just got back from the parts store and the module tested fine.

[Countach via CarKB.com]

John Craker

OK...I am going to pull the module out of one of my parts cars tomorrow.
CROSS YOUR FINGERS!!! LOL I'd rather just replace it then bring my wifes hot
pink hair dryer in front of all the auto buffs at the parts store :)

Also just to note ecm codes...I have 2 that pulled up from the ALDL.

Code 34 Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor
The ECM will set code 34 when a problem with the MAP sensor is detected
(unusual high vacuum/low pressure). Code 34 usually indicates a defective MAP
sensor. Check all connections and replace the MAP sensor if necessary.

and

Code 54...whatever that code means...




I changed the computer today with one from the parts car that had a weird 4K
RPM idle and now that issue carried over to the countach so now it has a 4K
RPM idle with this ecm. This parts car ecm pulled only one code:(see below)

Code 23: Manifold Air Temperature (V6 only)
If the ECM detects a problem with the MAT sensor (unusual low temperature
reading), it will set Code 23. Check all connections and replace the MAT
sensor if necessary.


Thanks everyone for your help...I will report back tomorrow.

Post by John Craker
The module tested fine... because it was cold!
Bring a heat gun with you next time, and bake the crap out of it while the
guys testing it (this is sure to win brownie points and make him happy!
Not... hehehe). It'll probably fail.
Anyhow, if it'll light off with starting fluid, and most of these symptoms
are when it's hot....
......... Replace ignition module! .............
After working on 100% Fiero's for 5 years solid - I've probably replaced 50
or more of them.
Make sure the distributor base is FLAT and CLEAN.
Use the best heat sink paste you can find (arctic silver 5 for computers is
about the best stuff) between the module and dist. Only use a thin film of
it - more is not better!.

Post by Countach via CarKB.com
Just got back from the parts store and the module tested fine.

[Countach via CarKB.com]

Oh...and of course the parts car ecm wont start the car when its warm either..
.So at least the ECM is out of the question!

Post by Countach via CarKB.com
John Craker
OK...I am going to pull the module out of one of my parts cars tomorrow.
CROSS YOUR FINGERS!!! LOL I'd rather just replace it then bring my wifes hot
pink hair dryer in front of all the auto buffs at the parts store :)
Also just to note ecm codes...I have 2 that pulled up from the ALDL.
Code 34 Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor
The ECM will set code 34 when a problem with the MAP sensor is detected
(unusual high vacuum/low pressure). Code 34 usually indicates a defective MAP
sensor. Check all connections and replace the MAP sensor if necessary.
and
Code 54...whatever that code means...
I changed the computer today with one from the parts car that had a weird 4K
RPM idle and now that issue carried over to the countach so now it has a 4K
RPM idle with this ecm. This parts car ecm pulled only one code:(see below)
Code 23: Manifold Air Temperature (V6 only)
If the ECM detects a problem with the MAT sensor (unusual low temperature
reading), it will set Code 23. Check all connections and replace the MAT
sensor if necessary.
Thanks everyone for your help...I will report back tomorrow.

Post by John Craker
The module tested fine... because it was cold!

[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]

Post by John Craker

Post by Countach via CarKB.com
Just got back from the parts store and the module tested fine.

[Countach via CarKB.com]

I decided to go ahead and pull the module out of the parts car tonight and
swap it with the other module that tested good earlier. Well...same deal....
nothing has changed...still at square one. Any other ideas out there???

Post by Countach via CarKB.com
Oh...and of course the parts car ecm wont start the car when its warm either..
..So at least the ECM is out of the question!

Post by Countach via CarKB.com
John Craker

[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]

Post by Countach via CarKB.com

Post by Countach via CarKB.com
Just got back from the parts store and the module tested fine.

[labtech1]

remove your gas cap, and try to start it.

Post by Countach
I am building a countach replica out of an 86 Fiero GT 2.8l V6. I am running
a fuel cell with a new MSD #2225 High pressure fuel pump. I have droped the
engine back into the car and everything has been running fine as of last week.
I added antifreeze for the first time to the engine today and then started
the motor and let it run for about 20 minutes and then shut it off. I
immediately decided to crank the engine over again and it would crank fast...
but not start. Checked for proper timing and spark. Checked for fuel
pressure to the rail and plenty of it. I checked the middle trunk side spark
plug and no gas on it. Let the fuel pump run some more by manualy activating
it and still no fuel on the plug. I then turned the key and started the
engine and it immediately started and ran fine without hesitation and idled
beutifully. I turned the engine off and tried to restart it....not a cough
or sputter. Manualy ran the fuel pump for about 8 seconds and the car fires
right up and continues to run for as long as I do not turn off the key.

This

Post by Countach
same senario happens over and over again. Why will the car not start until
the fuel pump runs for 8 seconds prior to starting? I have not found
anywhere air can get into the line.
I have over 40 psi of fuel to the rail
I have a brand new fuel filter
Please help...I am going in for paint in 2 weeks...and dont want to push,
pull and drag this thing into the booth LOL.
Thanks,
Chris, OHIO

[Countach via CarKB.com]

Been there...done that LOL

Still no luck.

Post by labtech1
remove your gas cap, and try to start it.

Post by Countach
I am building a countach replica out of an 86 Fiero GT 2.8l V6. I am running
a fuel cell with a new MSD #2225 High pressure fuel pump. I have droped the

[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]

Post by Countach
Thanks,
Chris, OHIO

[labtech1]

Ok so from what I've read thru the thread, it appears you have a fuel
delivery problem. you might try a fuel pressure regulator and experiment
with various pressure setting. After that, if it doesn't work, I'd break
down and buy 6 new injectors, since you indicated that these were rebuilt or
reworked.

Post by Countach via CarKB.com
Been there...done that LOL
Still no luck.

Post by labtech1
remove your gas cap, and try to start it.

Post by Countach
I am building a countach replica out of an 86 Fiero GT 2.8l V6. I am running
a fuel cell with a new MSD #2225 High pressure fuel pump. I have droped the

[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]

Post by Countach
Thanks,
Chris, OHIO

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